Quesstion About Radiation (Gebhart Factor and more)

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Saint
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Quesstion About Radiation (Gebhart Factor and more)

Post by Saint »

Hi,
Short story: I am receiving the Gebhart Factor Error, and I don't know how to solve it, or even where to read about it !
:?: How can I fix it ? Which element of the boundary condition is missing or causing this error?
:?: Where can I find multiphysic (radiation, convection and air flow) examples to learn? or what is the best way to learn this software.
(I found only few videos on youtube, and they were not detailed and I couldn't extract much information from the 3 manual with a quick read, maybe it need more passes)


Long story: I'm new to Elmer (2 weeks from the first time I've heard its name); and I am starting with multiphysic problem. I am describing the main case at the end, but right now, I've tried to simplify it to learn step by step

:arrow: Simplified problem:
I have two intersecting cube (basically a cubic heating element inside a room) and I want to simulate heat radiation between. Unfortunately, I am receiving "Gebhardt Factor Error", but I don't know how can I fix it (believe me, I have tried every possible scenario that i knew might help, but to be honest, I don't know where or how to learn the software properly! I have downloaded three manuals, for solver, model and tutorial but ... let's say I am under pressure and I didn't read it step by step).
These are some information that might help:

CAD Image:
Image

Screenshot of Elmer
Image

Sif

Code: Select all

Header
  CHECK KEYWORDS Warn
  Mesh DB "." "."
  Include Path ""
  Results Directory ""
End

Simulation
  Max Output Level = 5
  Coordinate System = Cartesian
  Coordinate Mapping(3) = 1 2 3
  Simulation Type = Steady state
  Steady State Max Iterations = 1
  Output Intervals(1) = 1
  Solver Input File = case.sif
  Post File = case.vtu
End

Constants
  Gravity(4) = 0 -1 0 9.82
  Stefan Boltzmann = 5.670374419e-08
  Permittivity of Vacuum = 8.85418781e-12
  Permeability of Vacuum = 1.25663706e-6
  Boltzmann Constant = 1.380649e-23
  Unit Charge = 1.6021766e-19
End

Body 1
  Target Bodies(1) = 1
  Name = "Panel"
  Equation = 1
  Material = 1
  Initial condition = 1
End

Body 2
  Target Bodies(1) = 2
  Name = "Room"
  Equation = 1
  Material = 2
  Initial condition = 1
End

Solver 1
  Equation = Heat Equation
  Procedure = "HeatSolve" "HeatSolver"
  Variable = Temperature
  Exec Solver = Always
  Stabilize = True
  Optimize Bandwidth = True
  Steady State Convergence Tolerance = 1.0e-5
  Nonlinear System Convergence Tolerance = 1.0e-7
  Nonlinear System Max Iterations = 20
  Nonlinear System Newton After Iterations = 3
  Nonlinear System Newton After Tolerance = 1.0e-3
  Nonlinear System Relaxation Factor = 1
  Linear System Solver = Iterative
  Linear System Iterative Method = BiCGStab
  Linear System Max Iterations = 500
  Linear System Convergence Tolerance = 1.0e-10
  BiCGstabl polynomial degree = 2
  Linear System Preconditioning = ILU0
  Linear System ILUT Tolerance = 1.0e-3
  Linear System Abort Not Converged = False
  Linear System Residual Output = 10
  Linear System Precondition Recompute = 1
End

Equation 1
  Name = "Equation 1"
  Active Solvers(1) = 1
End

Material 1
  Name = "Aluminium (generic)"
  Sound speed = 5000.0
  Heat Conductivity = 237.0
  Youngs modulus = 70.0e9
  Poisson ratio = 0.35
  Heat expansion Coefficient = 23.1e-6
  Heat Capacity = 897.0
  Density = 2700.0
End

Material 2
  Name = "Steel (carbon - generic)"
  Youngs modulus = 200.0e9
  Heat expansion Coefficient = 13.8e-6
  Sound speed = 5100.0
  Density = 7850.0
  Heat Capacity = 1265.0
  Heat Conductivity = 44.8
  Poisson ratio = 0.285
End

Initial Condition 1
  Name = "InitialCondition 1"
  Temperature = 300
End

Boundary Condition 1
  Target Boundaries(1) = 6 
  Name = "600 0.6"
  Emissivity = 0.6
  Radiation = Diffuse Gray
  Heat Flux = 600
End

Boundary Condition 2
  Target Boundaries(11) = 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 
  Name = "0.5 sides"
  Emissivity = 0.5
  Radiation = Diffuse Gray
End

Boundary Condition 3
  Target Boundaries(5) = 1 2 3 4 5 
  Name = "0.6 P"
  Radiation = Diffuse Gray
  Emissivity = 0.6
End


Zip of all generated files
https://file.io/QCtRQpJ11v4M

Clearly, I am using windows, and I have downloaded the latest zip version (gui with mpi), but there is a problem with running paraview from elmer or running post processing of elmer, which I guess it should be due the zip version without installation.

* BTW, one thing that might be the problem: I have selected the same initial thermal condition for both bodies, and there is no external or dirichlet temperature applied to the boundaries. In reality the heater and environment are at equilibrium (room temp) and heater, heats up due to its flux. I expect the elmer to understand this scenario, but maybe it is the issue ???


The original Problem
I have a heating element inside of a room and it generates a heat flux; meaning there is a big hollow cube (with thick walls), containing a cubic heater, and air.
Heater is connected to the wall, but I am excluding the conduction.
There will be heat convection, which is one of the main objectives of the simulation (both heat flow and heat transfer).
There will be heat radiation, between heat, walls and air. Yes, I know the heat transfer of a transparent material is low, but I still need it; and furthermore, I don't know how to include heated walls into the equation and consider their effect as secondary heat sources (due to heating up by the heater's radiation).
I haven't reached there yet, but I am super scared about possible problems and corners that I don't know of.
kevinarden
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Joined: 25 Jan 2019, 01:28
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Re: Quesstion About Radiation (Gebhart Factor and more)

Post by kevinarden »

If you are using windows you should start here.
https://www.nic.funet.fi/pub/sci/physic ... dElmer.pdf
Saint
Posts: 28
Joined: 19 Apr 2023, 08:15
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Re: Quesstion About Radiation (Gebhart Factor and more)

Post by Saint »

Thank you for the quick reply!
I will read into it, and probably there is some basic step that I didn't know about it.

But in the meanwhile, please share any guesses that you might have about my issue.
kevinarden
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Re: Quesstion About Radiation (Gebhart Factor and more)

Post by kevinarden »

1. Mesh
There are coincident nodes on the internal boundaries, therefore the bodies can't share data. Two options, merge the coincident nodes or use mortar boundary conditions. merge is the better option.
I merged nodes with ElmerGrid but it can be done in your mesher.
ElmerGrid 14 2 E8-Part -autoclean -merge 1.E-5
Note that this puts the mesh in a sub-folder called E8-Part
2. With merged nodes, internal nodes shared between bodies you do not need boundary conditions on those interfaces. The shared nodes will handle it.
3. The boundary conditions are for the extternal boundaries of the system
temperature.png
(117.25 KiB) Not downloaded yet
mcase.sif
(2.52 KiB) Downloaded 44 times
kevinarden
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Re: Quesstion About Radiation (Gebhart Factor and more)

Post by kevinarden »

If you want to include convection and airflow you may be interested in this case
viewtopic.php?t=3242
Saint
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Re: Quesstion About Radiation (Gebhart Factor and more)

Post by Saint »

kevinarden wrote: 19 Apr 2023, 12:46 1. Mesh
There are coincident nodes on the internal boundaries, therefore the bodies can't share data. Two options, merge the coincident nodes or use mortar boundary conditions. merge is the better option.
I merged nodes with ElmerGrid but it can be done in your mesher.
ElmerGrid 14 2 E8-Part -autoclean -merge 1.E-5
Note that this puts the mesh in a sub-folder called E8-Part
2. With merged nodes, internal nodes shared between bodies you do not need boundary conditions on those interfaces. The shared nodes will handle it.
3. The boundary conditions are for the extternal boundaries of the system

temperature.png

mcase.sif
WOW, you are a lifesaver ! Thank you so much.
I had no idea about the examples, model manual and the nodes issue.
I don't even know how you noticed the nodes (I haven't read into the model PDF yet). According to my previous experience with other softwares, my focus was to deliver distinguishable parts but I didn't know how the nodes were in detail (their relation).

One sub-question:
e.g. in Ansys, we had a symmetry axis and planes,to reduce the computational expense. over there, when we had the full body, we would select planes or axes to cut the shape.
I don't know about elmer, do we have the same here? Can I cut my shape in quarters?

The png file that you have sent, I don't know if you have used symmetry option or you have shown only a clipped cross section (sliced visualization) of the result?
kevinarden
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Re: Quesstion About Radiation (Gebhart Factor and more)

Post by kevinarden »

Yes you can use planes of symmetry. I did not, I just cut the plane in paraview.
Saint
Posts: 28
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Re: Quesstion About Radiation (Gebhart Factor and more)

Post by Saint »

kevinarden wrote: 19 Apr 2023, 12:46 2. With merged nodes, internal nodes shared between bodies you do not need boundary conditions on those interfaces. The shared nodes will handle it.
3. The boundary conditions are for the extternal boundaries of the system
then how can I tell the software there is heat being generated in one of the bodies ?

The only field I saw was the "heat flux" in boundary condition.
kevinarden
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Joined: 25 Jan 2019, 01:28
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Re: Quesstion About Radiation (Gebhart Factor and more)

Post by kevinarden »

If the heat is generated in the body use a body force.

You can use the internal boundaries if you do want to enforce a boundary condition on an internal boundary.
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